Saturday, March 14, 2009

Our Karma and this Difficult World

Sometimes one’s spiritual nature is like a rushing river and sometimes it is an underground stream. When the latter is extant then the Visible Origami side of things seems to suffer accordingly as I’m more concerned with getting my life in balance than I am with actually being balanced and having something to say as a result. It’s been a smooth and successful day so I’ll take a chance and see if I have anything to say.

I don’t usually respond to the comments at any of the blogs. I’ve already said what I have to say in the post and because it can get really complicated doing so for a variety of reasons and I must have some background in this sort of thing that makes me stay away. However, I do read all of the comments and often take the inspiration for future posts from them. One thing I notice is trends. Certain types of respondents will appear and sometimes I can see that several anonymous posters are the same person.

I notice that a pretty large majority have the opinion that we’re all screwed. Some say we all deserve what’s coming; even though no one knows what’s coming. Some are armed and ready to do battle and some fully expect to be wiped out or locked up. Personally, I don’t feel any of these things. For me, as I have said many times before, everything is under control... right up to the tremble in every leaf and the movements of creatures too tiny to see. There’s a conscious force working through everything, even the rocks. It is an evolutionary spiral that sees into an unimaginable future and to our dualized minds that perceive things in a relative way, we just don’t get it.

This is the wisdom that is at the heart of Zen; mystical Christianity, Sufism, Buddhism and the real yogic mindset. They’re all the same. They all stress oneness with something incomprehensible. They all indicate that a union occurs and that the opposites which bewilder us merge into a single state of being and perceiving... of the knower and the known.

Some sort of mystical tranquility occurs and the world, with all of its pleasures and torments no longer concerns us. I’ve noticed this in the bonafide masters that I have encountered. Let me say that I have encountered more who were bogus than bonafide. In the company of the real ones the influence of the world and its powers of attraction are vastly diminished and often seen for what they are, when your sympathetic strings are humming to the master’s notes.

I will tell you a secret that you may, perhaps, think you already know. The thought that we know this is the main hindrance to its manifestation. Real masters are in control of themselves because they have completely surrendered the will to control. As one becomes more in control of themselves, the world around them submits as well because the entire manifest world is a projection of the mind. You are either in continuous surrender to the single governing force or, you are serving the shadow master.

Whatever happens to us in life is directly connected to this feature. The present world has the appearance of great uncertainty to it because it is in a state of great transformation due to a cyclic recurrence. However... as certain as your karma makes the conditions you encounter unavoidable... this world is always uncertain. You can experience horrendous circumstances in wonderful periods of time with a sense of stability and well being all around you. Distracted by your concerns about some coming doom you can step right in front of a bus so... where’s the difference? You’re gone one way or another. Being here is all about understanding who you are and why you are. Your environment and all of the things swirling around you because they are swirling in your mind are of only secondary consideration because the former has everything to do with the latter.

Someone at another blog said that Karma looks like just another face of evil because of something to do with puppies being boiled. It appears that many of us do not understand what Karma is. There are certain words associated with Karma; action, deeds, work, consequences of previous actions. There is a Tibetan mandala called, The Wheel of Existence. Sometimes it is called, “The Wheel of Life”. You might want to study this for awhile. It explains everything. It is up to you where you are headed and what you encounter.

Some of us become very discouraged because what we are seeking we cannot find 'here'. For most people the problem is getting their hands on it because it can be found here. Too often we look at certain difficulties that we have ‘here’ in the worst possible way. It is a tremendous blessing to be dissatisfied with this world. To be able to see through the veils at this time is a sign of very good karma indeed. However we may suffer here, it does not go on forever and we are burning up our karma as we go. In some ways you could say that karma is the measure of our own personal blindness.

Many people today do not believe that there is a conscious creator that contains and fills us and composes everything we encounter. Far too many others believe in a God who could not possibly exist and they attribute the most ridiculous things to this God of theirs. Religions are a guide but they do not and could not contain even a tiny portion of what the pervading consciousness is. No one has or ever will comprehend this. It is foolish to try. We can make certain assumptions and we can certainly search for and engage those wiser than ourselves.

I make it a point to say that I don’t know. I would not want to give the impression that I do. However... there are some things that I have experienced many, many times and one of these things is the presence of this consciousness of which I am speaking. I have personally seen manifestations of Hindu deities. I have seen holographic Buddha’s sitting within the foliage and flowers and I have seen serpents moving in and through everything. I have seen a fiery hieroglyphic writing imprinted in every form I was looking at and I understood that this was the vibrational integrity or ‘word’ that gave this object- composed of the same basic matter as is everything in creation- it’s individual being.

I have had these experiences over the course of decades; hundreds and hundreds of times, thousands of times, I am not keeping count. My point is... something is there. It is real. I am listing only a very few of the things I have encountered. My personal karma has made it impossible for me to stay very long at any time in any of these places but knowing they are there is all the impetus I need to keep reminding myself that this is not the real world and that attachment to this world is the root cause of suffering.

When it comes to a good manner in which to deal with your karma, the words of Jesus Christ are hard to improve on. “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.” “Love your enemy.” “If a man asks for your cloak, give him your hat as well” That last one isn’t correct but you get the idea. This is the mindset needed and anyone who tries it for a little while will see how difficult it appears to be and how quickly people will abandon it upon the appearance of provocation.

Things can change in an instant. All that is needed is for us to change ourselves. It is the repetition of outworn patterns of behavior that subject us to the wheel of our individual torment. We have to let go. We have no choice. We are not lost or screwed unless we lose ourselves in this world or screw ourselves and even that won’t last forever either. Sooner or later everyone comes to a place of understanding. For those who strive, results come quickly. As the Bhagavad-Gita says... “Success is speedy for the energetic.”

Visible sings: Then You Let Go by Les Visible♫ Then You Let Go ♫
Lyrics (pops up)


kikz said...


Anonymous said...

Su says
ditto kidz - :)
word verification comen

Anonymous said...

Hope this is of interest and is not too lengthy..

Q. Why should we be punished for something that we have done in a previous life and cannot remember in the present? It seems unfair because had we known of the consequences it would have been easier to rectify ourselves.

A. "The law of karma does not involve God's punishing or rewarding us. It involves nature's appropriate response to our will and our subsequent action in relation to her response. While other forms of life have no opportunity to understand this law, human life affords us the chance to become aware of it through introspection, scripture, and the insight of sadhus. Taking advantage of these facilities is what distinguishes humanity from other species.
The law of karma is the stern, just hand of material nature. It has not been superimposed on nature by a morally good God but rather functions accurately or justly of its own accord by reciprocating in kind the actions of the jivas--be they influenced by sattva (virtue), rajas (ambition), or tamas (torpidity). If no one else acknowledges one's virtuous acts, material nature will take note and create circumstances that reward one."

Ben There said...

I've been so busy lately and concerning myself with things that really aren't that important; yet despite that, I've allowed them to dominate the better portion of my spare time for a couple of weeks now. This, just after I'd resolved to meditate every morning, no matter what. Almost as soon as I'd made this resolution (and this is one I make fairly regularly) some pressing issue arose that has consumed the better part of my energy. Striving for more in the material realm when I already have more than enough. I think it's more out of competitiveness. It's ugly, I know. But maybe it is my karma to chase after certain pointless things. It's like a little game, but each little game is a distraction from the one thing that matters, the thing that you address each time you write here. An interesting life, this is. Sorry for going on and on like this...these essays provoke that tendency of mine sometimes. We shall press on. Thanks for the wisdom.

Kevenj said...

"..we are burning up our karma as we go.."

I thought I understood Karma but maybe not. Please explain this?

Visible said...

When I say, "we are burning our karma as we go" I was speaking to the mindset of those who are seeking freedom from it because surely, we are also creating it as we go.

Let me see if I can phrase the meaning of what I was trying to express a little better.

The heart must consume the mind so that Love becomes the primary driving engine of one's life. As and if this occurs, everything one does consumes the negativity in it's approach because Love turns everything into itself. It is the cosmic vitriol that reduces everything to the same essential.

Karma; negative karma can be swiftly dispatched through right intention and effort and there is no greater inspiration for either than Love. Love is a fire. It is a consuming fire. It is the same fire that the saints rejoice in and the ill doers suffer in.

If we are in the right position as we proceed and that would be proceeding with a loving nature then we are burning it as we go.

Good karma is more desirable than bad karma but no karma is more desirable still. Of course, on this plane there is no absence of karma so long as a physical vehicle is housing the soul. This is simplistic and extemporaneous so I think it is anything but complete and not very precise but I hope it explains a little better what I meant.

Anonymous said...

To everything (turn, turn, turn)
There is a season (turn, turn, turn)
And a time for every purpose, under heaven

A time to be born, a time to die
A time to plant, a time to reap
A time to kill, a time to heal
A time to laugh, a time to weep

To everything (turn, turn, turn)
There is a season (turn, turn, turn)
And a time for every purpose, under heaven

A time to build up,a time to break down
A time to dance, a time to mourn
A time to cast away stones, a time to gather stones together

To everything (turn, turn, turn)
There is a season (turn, turn, turn)
And a time for every purpose, under heaven

A time of love, a time of hate
A time of war, a time of peace
A time you may embrace, a time to refrain from embracing

To everything (turn, turn, turn)
There is a season (turn, turn, turn)
And a time for every purpose, under heaven

A time to gain, a time to lose
A time to rend, a time to sew
A time to love, a time to hate
A time for peace, I swear its not too late

and a time for being thankful for mirrors, but choosing not to go there any more--may you have the strength to continue writing there as it was a link from WRH that got me in here, and through here to there--and the connection(s) with my fellow travelers---


Kevenj said...

My thanks for that.
Peace be with you.

Anonymous said...

Excellent post! (again)
Gave me a head rush; off to ponder...

Anonymous said...

Jj, Welcome.

Beautiful essay Les, thanks.
I wish GS would heed.


Visible said...

There is a new chapter to the online book; "Spiritual Survival in a Temporal World" now available.

Spiritual Survival in a Temporal World, Chapter 14

Anonymous said...

"Of course, on this plane there is no absence of karma so long as a physical vehicle is housing the soul."

Without high minded intent, I offer this from the Bhagavad-Gita...

"Abandon all varieties of religion and just surrender unto Me. I shall deliver you from all sinful reaction. Do not fear."
Lord Krishna

"In Sanskrit language three types of action are described. Karma refers to pious actions. Vikarma refers to impious actions. And akarma refers to devotional or transcendental actions. Akarma means "inaction" because it is an activity that does not generate any karmic reaction. Whether we perform karma, pious activities, or we perform vikarma, impious activities, we must stay in the material world to accept our good or bad reactions. Even if we are rewarded with good reactions such as being born in a wealthy family, still we have to get sick, get old, and die. Therefore learned transcendentalists are not interested in karma, the pious activities of this material world. They simply focus themselves 100% on akarma, devotional service, because that is the only type of activity which will free us from the cycle of birth and death.
In the final analysis it is not that akarma is devoid of piety as some false propaganda mongers declare. Akarma is the perfection of piety because everyone involved with it becomes delivered back to spiritual world for an eternal life, full of bliss, and full of knowledge. Therefore, fully understanding the distinction between vikarma, karma, and akarma, we should accept the pathway of akarma, pure devotional service.
Sankarshan Das Adhikari

Visible said...

There is a new Reflections in a Petri Dish post up now.

Too Fat to Fly and too Selfish to Try.

Anonymous said...

I'd hoped you'd be inspired to write an article on Karma. Loved it, Les. Bull's eye! (grin)

Anonymous said...

Thank you, sir, for this latest great piece.
Burning up karma, love burning inside, and burning one...

For your enjoyment, there is my new drum video up today. Please view at your leisure.



reenie said...

thank you Les

Anonymous said...

Hi Les, interesting article.

Sometimes it seems that picking up on metaphysical things is more remembering than discovering.

take care

Anonymous said...

Les, This is the speaker I have heard you become before, and have much thanks for you choice of words for all.
The Zen thing is big, one cant use words, but all things to form themself(or share oneself). The idea of karma is much to rounded for even the best stated, but well you have tried.
I see karma working in "realtime" and I doesnt not need to link events for it to be. The wheel of life or tree or seed or what image works best for you is a great key to start with. I use pictures to began more deep and moving ideas, much like the water images you have used here. But these to are just doorways, and not the whole trip.
It is what we do to yourself that will be written down in the soul, not what others do nor what we do to them.
To create is a "me" thing, and outwards comes everthing else to that creation. I too enjoy the fire/love thing, but find love a bad word to use. To see all that something is, thats love. Then to add it to my creating of thing, thats just fun!!!
The balance of mind/heart is new to me. For years did I see the mind in control of feelings, only letting the heart be a warning bell. But over the past few years, I have found a new tool within me, a beating center of boundless engery, ready to do and share before my own eyes.
Thanks for letting me hear again, many of my deppest and dearest ideas by your mouth.


Anonymous said...

Hey Les,

This last weekend I and 6 friends drove 6 hours RT to participate with my friend Amarananda Bhairavan in a Ganesh Puja with about 50 other folks. He grew up in Kerala and, from the age of 5 to 18, studied daily with the brahmin vedic pujaris and, by night, with the old matriarchal pre-vedic shamanesses. His first book describing his upbringing, makes Castenada sound like kindergarden.

Anyway, 3 things of interest said during the puja:
Ganesh, of course, is the gateway to the kundalini, residing in the Muladhara (lowest/root) chakra, mostly extremely neglected and backed-up and source of many physical and psych problems in most of the seeker/spiritual crowd.
The purpose of "puja" (a 'karmic' action) is: by creating a safe, strongly protected collective space, our karmic "sheathes" can be opened and burned/cooked, and we can focus our purest self on our deepest intention, let the energy of a force like Ganesh 'remove' obstacles instead of being the 'giver' of obstacles. Our own personal grace/blessing is then ritually/purposefully shared all around.
Matangi is the form of the Goddess/Parvati/Mother-Earth/Mother-of -the-Devas as "Mother of Ganesh". The way the Xtians got it backward is that the way to the Mother-of-Creation is through the son (Ganapati), not the other way around.

Life is strange, and life is good.
blessings and respects,

Visible said...

Geez Bholanath;

I'm really sorry I'm missing these things. Some of what you said is very interesting to me because it explains some of the things I went through with the kundalini.

what I don't quite understand is why when I was going through the most intense periods of the awakening that I never encountered Ganesh or saw him. I had quite some meetings with Kali and Shiva as well as Krishna and various beings I couldn't identify because I didn't know anything about what I was going through until afterwards when I began to come across the names that fit the beings I had seen.

I never thought much about Ganesha. And when I did I thought of him as the common household God and sometimes the God of merchants. Then he showed up when I was in central Italy almost three years ago and whammo. Then I found out what it was he actually did and represented. When I saw that he was the remover of obstacles shivers went up my spine and then when I found out he was Lord of the Devic Realm it just blew me away. I can't understand how this fact had managed to escape me considering how great my interest was in the Devic Realm.

Even today, knowing some part of what the things that happened to me meant I still know very little about various parts of it even though I can remember them quite well. It is as if I keep going along without very much understanding of what things mean or what I mean in relation to them but in the meantime I am engaged in so many things that I don't question and which just materialized all by themselves leaving me most of the time as no more than a witness even though it would seem I am deeply involved in what I do...

It's pretty strange.

If you email me I can tell you a couple of stories and maybe you might have some insight into what some of it means.

Anonymous said...


bholanath here

I forgot to mention Bhairavan's book title: Kali's Odiyya. Check it out.
He grew up in the most intense Kali scene, and the "odiyya" is the title given to a shaman of Her persuasion.

I will send an email now, so you can lay some of the tales on me.
Hey, even most of the Indians don't have a real handle on Ganesh.
I'm not an 'expert', but I am "experienced"....

Anonymous said...

Rachel Corrie
.1979 - 2003.

rosie said...

Jj Ioved your words - thank you.
As for the rest I am surely a simple soul.
I have never met or seen a God - as far as I know! Although I am very certain of a 'guardian angel' - bless whoever has that rotten job. I clearly tread the low road not the high. So be it.
I certainly follow a road of no religion, whilst believing in the 'one' whether it be Krishna, the Council of Nine or Uncle Tom Cobley.
I wait the discovery with interest.
I certainly believe in Karma. I have, once, dreamt of what I believe (I cannot be sure) was myself in my last life - but it explains my present one very well. I just regret terribly whatever I may have done to others in that existence - and trust I have learnt a hard lesson or two.
I have also stopped the wheel when it comes to others. I want no one to experience karma through any act against myself. It would not help my hurt and just prolongs the misery, one way or another.
I have read all your comments and some show how utterly ignorant I am of some spiritual matters. Well, its too bad, I will take my chance. I have no time for such research as I fulfil the tasks allotted me.
However I do have a quibble with this
'In the final analysis it is not that akarma is devoid of piety as some false propaganda mongers declare. Akarma is the perfection of piety because everyone involved with it becomes delivered back to spiritual world for an eternal life, full of bliss, and full of knowledge.'
I am sure all you enlightened ones will jump on me hard, but this to me smacks of utmost selfishness.
I have always felt that all the monks and nuns, priests and priestesses of all sorts of faiths spending hours on their collective knees praying to Gods of every variety, was a total and utter waste of 'piety' if you can call it that.
All the hungry, cold, lonely, miserable, homeless and starving people who could be helped, and I am meant to believe that doing all your akarma and the suchlike in search of your!!!!!!! ultimate 'eternal life, full of bliss, and full of knowledge.'is better than doing a half decent job of helping your fellow worldly souls - whether humans or animals -defeats all sense and logic to me.
It is the ultimate 'me' agenda.
I hope I can use whatever piety and care I have, to lend a helping hand to other souls along the way -which I truly do - rather than fluff around looking at my own 'ascent'.
I can only do my best, Les, take or leave it. If its not good enough I have to do it all again and actually its that thought in mind that acts as a spur if I falter on my path.
I would much prefer not to, believe me.

rosie said...

Actually, Les, whilst putting on the tea I have another quibble!from your comments.
Why do people associate 'good' with wealth.
Are we really to believe that Paris Hilton and Prince Charles are where they are because their karma is in credit? If so it won't be, the way they are going on!!!!!
I strongly object to those who associate disability or poverty with 'bad' karma. As though souls are deserving of their poverty or suffering because of past mistakes.
I am no expert but I sincerely believe that some of the oldest and greatest souls would choose to reincarnate in poverty or mental/physical illness or affliction.
I also quibble at the theory, I once read, that the signs of the zodiac indicate how advanced your soul may be. Aries through Pisces.
Well I was married to a Pisces for twenty odd miserable years.
A selfish, and narrow minded individual, believe me.
I certainly find it hard to believe he was on the cusp of higher things. And frankly - sorry you pisces out there - I have never found a Pisces that I could really cope with any easier. My ex husband seemed to be typical of my experience.
Forgive me all you lovely piscean souls. I, perhaps, not know what i say.

Visible said...

Hi Rosie;

I haven't a clue as to how to answer you because the logic of your answers and examples completely escapes me and doesn't relate in any recognizable way (in my mind) to anything I said or the manner in which I understand these things.

I think you should contact either a Hindu or Buddhist individual who has studied the ancient texts and ask them to give you an explanation or rather read what the primary books have to say on the matter.

when you take a specific person with a specific sun sign of which there are probably 500 million of them and of course one's sun sign is only a feature of a person's being and there are a great many other factors; see I can't even answer. the idea that you can take a person who has a sun sign and make a judgment that then reflects upon an entire system that is so far beyond tiny random examples just leaves me... God... I don't know...

Paris Hilton... rich people, poor people.... I, I, I just don't know what to say. I can't help in this incidence in any way shape or form. Sorry and also sorry about how this may come across but my policy is to respond completely without filters but of course with all due restraint given that nobody really knows what's going on.

Anonymous said...

I am not one to step on Les' frogs
However, everything spiritual comes from within
As my old mate Deli la Marr says, 'the answer is within'

rosie said...

Obviously Les, I have seriously displeased you.
I was being slightly facetious about the sun signs. But it is a serious theory in some peoples belief system, I can assure you.
I just raised the matter to show how very different various beliefs can be. Perhaps in too light hearted a manner and thus verging on frivolous. Thats me. Blame my sun sign, Gemini.
My comment on rich and poor was in response to this quote'
Even if we are rewarded with good reactions such as being born in a wealthy family, still we have to get sick, get old, and die. By Anonymous.
My comments about a 'me agenda' was directed to another comment.
None of it to your original blog which was very interesting.
If you took it personally you shouldn't have. Its just that I do read all the comments with interest and was commenting on same.
I consider my wrist thoroughly slapped - a good time - I won't be around for the next few weeks.
I am rather privileged to be helping to take a very disabled man/child with learning difficulties and autism on a holiday of a lifetime to Orlando.
Perhaps when I return I will be forgiven.
We each earn our 'brownie' points in our own ways, I guess.
Mine is 'hands on'.
Its difficult to concentrate on Indian Mysticism - in such circumstances. You are more busy checking on the availibility of disabled loos.
But there I go again. Too much levity - my other wrist slapped in advance. I am like Dobby the house elf. Banging my head in anticipation.
Take care

Visible said...


This is precisely what I wished to avoid. It has been happening more often lately. Possibly it is karma? (grin)

No wrists were slapped and I'm not displeased at all. It wasn't that kind of a thing and which I tried to clarify in my response. I simply didn't know how to answer something like that. It was way beyond my abilities. Possibly it was because I didn't see the levity or humorous intent at all and so I was obviously reading it as a direct statement which is probably what confused me.

I don't know why it is that people often think I have some kind of personal reaction to things that I actually don't have. I'm not RamaKrishna but I am a pretty mellow and generally non-confrontational kind of a guy; especially here.

I hesitate to define why I think this sort of thing happens because it may well lead right back to the same thing again but... I'm pretty much like the things I write (I don't know if that's good or bad) and, at the same time- there are specifically different personalities at work. I would guess I have an incurable case of MPS. Luckily my personalities get along with each other and have a pretty well established pecking order.

Anyway... as I said... I read and then respond and try to arrange my responses without offense; except in certain rare instances but... life's cycles make it unavoidable that there will be times I am not understood by people in the way I intended to be and there will be times that I do not understand either. What I do... I notice that the stream I am standing in is moving and so I just let it carry everything away and if I want to accelerate that I can always just turn around and walk upstream.

rosie said...

Oh some of it was serious,Les.
Its just I need a bit of levity when it comes to my ex husband (grin back).
I think we can all agree on one thing - seriously or with levity - and certainly with all our hearts and souls.
Love. Love is a key.
We may all manifest it in different ways, following our different beliefs and concepts, and our higher or lower spiritual understandings.
If I read some of the postings correctly it seems that we should put earthly concerns behind us and think of higher things.
I fail the test.
How can anyone with even a stony amount of love remain unmoved by the plight of the Palestinians or the unethical and brutal treatment of animals across much of the globe.
I'll stick with love I think, and as I say - take my chance.
We fly out in a few days and return on the fourth of April.
I will certainly 'love' catching up on all the blogs and comments as I will be suffering from severe! computer withdrawal! the whole time - never mind Hindu teachings.
I, too, refuse to get very worried about what might be coming.
I was one of the idiots, sitting on my stockpiled food and candles waiting for the lights to go out at Y2K.
I think some of the food might still be in the loft. Well past its use by date but I guess better than nothing when the pole shift comes.
Once bitten, twice shy says I.
If your number comes up - it going to come up. I have infinite faith in the greater plan.
Just to demonstrate the number thing.
In the last war my great auntie Rose (b about 1872) used to stay with my grandparents (her neice) who lived in Lancing Sussex.
One day an air raid from Germany was turned back from London and the bombers tended to unload their bombs on the people below as they returned to bases.
One fell on my grandparents home totally destroying it and all they had. It killed great Aunt Rose - who was a really sweet old lady.
It was just a random bomb.
That very same week Aunt Rose's house in London was bombed. Totally destroyed. One of only two in the street that were hit and in fact it was not a target area. Very little other damage was received throughout the whole war.
Aunt Rose was doomed. She died in a chance bomb in Lancing. She would surely have died in London.
How do you beat that if its meant to be. Something to ponder if totally off topic.
Any way if I don't appear again until into April - my wrists are apparently unslapped, appreciate that - all enjoy spring and really take care.
Micky and Goofy, Snow white and Ugly sisters - I am on my way.

Anonymous said...

rosie said-
"but this to me smacks of utmost selfishness."

yeah, it's called subtle spiritual egoism (or some such).
like the "wealth" thing, and the "monk" thing, many people get tripped out on some spiritual glamor trance, and because most written scriptures/holy-books/texts can be cherry-picked and self-edited/self-censored, much of "mysticism" is a big detour on growth and awareness. This is why the best teacher-student relationship always has been and still is: oral transmission one on one.
boddhisattva-hood is a truly mystical path. that's 'foregoing' one's own liberation till after all other sentient beings find theirs. serving others and life. this path can be with or without bhakta (passionate devotion), but 'with' seems to be an advantage.

I've seen where 'renunciation', done fiercely and ruthlessly can bring full realization and energy. but only in very rare cases. and then there's always the eventual renunciation of 'renunciation'.(grin)

this is all merely my personal take on whatever. My Opinion®

I do appreciate your humor.


rosie said...

Gosh! Hang on, Bholanath
'boddhisattva-hood is a truly mystical path'
This is getting a bit deep.
I haven't even got one of Les's books yet. (I am still reading the secret history books someone on here recommended. - Brilliant - thanks)
After reading your reply I think I am definitely one of the 'transient beings' and being dragged along, and by a master I imagine, as I probably take some dragging.
I will settle for that.
I must say that I find it all very interesting, if a bit above my head at times (of course you haven't noticed! grin).
Thanks and respects back

Anonymous said...

"I was one of the idiots, sitting on my stockpiled food and candles waiting for the lights to go out at Y2K."

This made me chuckle. Couldn't help but notice most worried folks weren't even worried on the actual Y2K. They "went off" one year early. (1-01-2000). When the real Y2K (1-01-2001) rolled around, right on schedule one year later, no one paid much attention...

Anonymous said...

India is perhaps the most advanced civilization on earth. They were discussing things extremely complex while the Europeans were hitting themselves over the head with clubs. However...

Karma. We all can relate to the concept of, whatever you do will come back to you. We more or less see this all the time. Sometimes it just takes too long for that idea to come back around though. The Rothchilds and Rockefellers have been going strong for years and years. By the time their karma will catch up to them, millions and millions of people will have died.

Karma involves reincarnation, you can't separate the two. The idea here is if you behave in this life you will be rewarded in the next. How many people in India believe that? If they really did, then India would be the center of the world. After Gandhi was killed, what happened? I don't have to tell you what happened. India is a nuclear power now. I don't know people, I don't know. Where is the love?

I do love India though. I know they are not the biggest country to practice Buddhism any more but, if I was forced to except a religion that would be it.

There is another expression, only the good die young. I don't know people.

I think we need to stay skeptical. That cleanses the mind. Meditation is complete attention moment after moment. Drop the beliefs. The Indian mind gave us one thing, that is, doubt. That is the treasure they gave us. Lets not forget that. It is quite opposite of belief.

Visible said...

Trust and then verify. I have never encountered in person or in writing and teacher who did not present some version of this even when it's hard to find.

In my mind, Karma is also know as 'the law'. It holds the planets in space. It has each atom in suspension according to it's nature. It might have no good or bad features (as we understand them) left but... it's still there.

Visible said...

No anonymous ad hominems allowed, nor are you allowed to pretend you're from another country either.

You want to say your piece then identify yourself and have at it. Given the moron context of your response it's clear you need to be laughed at. We can accommodate that.

kikz said...

didn't wanna bother leaving this post over on justgetthere...under the spiritual survival entry...... so i'll leave it here:)

hi les...
thanks for the heads-up on gurdjieff. i did some cursory (cliff notes) reading on sacred texts & wiki...
i'll admit, i'm no fan either.

his 2 main tenents i have disagreement w/
soul not inherent at birth.
dogmatic assertion that one MUST find a teacher.

- gurdjieff's overt positive impression of any member of 'hierarchical' catholicism is more than enough to set my teeth, as well as my better intuitions, on edge.

i loosely follow the hermetic school, as you know.. and hermetics teaches that when a 'student' is ready... the 'teacher' will appear. this does not necessarily (IMHO) mean that 'teacher' denotes a specific living entity, but rather information from various sources which has been written over the ages...

but if someone is interested, just as a comparison - they don't have to wade thru the entire 300+pages.. however, it was a kind offer of you to furnish.

wiki gives a decent overview, as does a search on sacredtexts.

which has a rather interesting take by m. morgan who explains the '8 circuited' human consciousness in terms of cybercraft - a little 'witchy' for me but, interesting as morgan relates/explains this concept as akin to electrical circuitry found in computers.

Table of 4 forms of consciousness was helpful...

somewhere in all that material i ran across a volume by Mead circa 1906 in that 'Thrice Greatest Hermes',

and a
name... Stobaeus - 'Many of the longer fragments are gleaned from Stobaeus, a fifth century CE late pagan anthologizer of Greek literature.'

funny thing is this Stobaeus of Macedonia - literally sprang from obscurity and retreated to such.

i have a theory, however ill founded :)
i may have found out 'what really happened' to one of hermetic history's lost champions.

the timing of late 5th century and geographical area and subject matter coincide... i think i may have found C(o)elestius - of Pelagian Heresy fame :)

after his 'battles' w/jerome and augustine... even w/julian the apostate's help.......both Pelagius/C(o)elestius - Morgan/Kelly
disappeared from history...

so round about, my research on gurdjieff led me to Stobaeus.

only wish i could find out more about his son, septimius (named after an earlier roman emperor)... to whom (general attribution) these fragments were written for....

thanks les*


Visible said...


The reason I wanted people to read, or even scan the book is because of what this guy achieved against some pretty terrific odds and during some of the worst periods of history in some of the worst places in history.

I get a little tired of people being negative about their future and I wanted them to see that you can prosper in bad times as well as good and sometimes much better. I also wanted them to see the level of endurance and energy that is possible for those who know how to tap it.

Thanks for your constant brilliant additions to these sites.

I was so blown away by what Nina said recently in her particular style that I wasn't even able to comment. Being somewhat florally expressive myself; given that I like color and lighting appearing between otherwise dry text I always get a thrill when I run across it and it manages to avoid being florid.

kikz said...

sorry hon, i didn't mean to insinuate/imply the book was a waste of time.. at all...

it is amazing what he did accomplish...and that his influence is still felt.

i'm just a horror, sort of a speed reader.. and just don't hav the time (to devote to anything more than a glancing blow - as far as intense study goes these days...)

my offerings were cliffnote -esque for those others who either also don't hav the time for 300+pages.. or are also lazy (like me) to peruse at length... i don't rush, but raw data extraction is for me a grind.. i'm more enamoured of synthesizing what i've read and ruminating on it..making other connections.. so that's just my way.. (grin)

and i agree in totality..
inre can be a self fulfilling's a damn hard fight.....

my hero, unc' al, also spoke to despondency in other times/ages.. he lived thru some ruff times too..

we've just got ta keep 'doin the work' and... as an old silly tune from ELO reminds us... 'hold on tight to your dreams'.

nina... what can i say.. i'm in awe... the painting.. her deft wielding of 'the keyboard' .... she's nextgen rennaissance... if... 'we' are ever to be looked back on as having offered any such persons in our meger time here....
nina, is to be are you :*)

Anonymous said...

The Lord cometh and the Lord is excusethed (as weather balloon).

Anonymous said...

I like that idea, that Karma is a law. We could say order. The universe has a certain kind of order.

I'm pretty sure almost everyone posting here, reading here, including you Les, have something in common. That is, sometime in our past we must have become discontent. Through discontent we began to inquire. Of course I'm talking about spiritual, religious inquiry. I think our first instinct is to read what others have said. Eventually we may find something that appeals to us.

You could call that an additive process. We add knowledge to our consciousness. What I like about Indian thought is another approach, which you could call subtractive. That is, eliminate the false ideas starting with oneself, and see what is left. Even if you have a valid experience, once it is over you are left a changed person perhaps, but if it's just a memory, then it is no longer real. Even the term 'our consciousness' implies that we possess something, as if the two are separate and different. So we start off with assumptions put there early on from our youth, what I like to call tacit assumptions. How to find out what is truth at a deep level when we are full of assumptions?

What I like about dialogue vs debate is the ability for people to come together and suspend their beliefs, at least temporarily, and question a subject. As all life is complex and a bit like a web, the discussion could go anywhere. At any rate if we could somehow keep an element of the discontent we had, and not get too lazy with our world view.

Anonymous said...

Hi Les-Ever consider you may be a boddhisatva?
It's not unusual from what I hear for those of an Eastern Tradition to be born in the West-and vice versa.
As Phillip K Dick writes, its not unknown for a boddhisatva to not know he/she is one.

Visible said...

That might explain how I can see the Buddhas in the foliage and the Hindu deities and it would certainly explain why my hands are always going into mudras but... it would be far better if I didn't think in those terms and just did what was in front of me and tried harder to be a better person because I can see where there might be some need for improvement.

I am aware of certain unusual features but I seldom know what anything means.



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